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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a D150 EPace on an 18 plate, bought new. When the vehicle was a few months old with about 4K mileage on the clock I started getting the oil service light illuminating. At first the dealer said that it was a computer or sensor problem and updated the software. The problem persisted and the dealer said that the problem was due to my driving style, doing too many short journeys at low speeds. He had never been a passenger in my car so I don't know how he knew about my driving style. The dealer suggested regular replacement of the oil filter at £200 a go at my expense should cure the problem.

I have since read up on the issue and it appears it is an issue with the DPF not regenerating which can cause the DPF to block and cause fuel to dilute the engine oil. I can't understand how regularly changing the oil filter will resolve either of these issues. I have never had a DPF warning light. The technical literature suggests that journeys of less than 20 minutes at 40 mph or less will prevent the DPF regenerating particularly on the EPace. Most of my journeys are more than 20 mins and are mostly on roads with 60 mph speed limits or motorways. I do however drive quite frugally and although my speed is usually in excess of 50 mph, I very seldom go much above 2000 rpm. The question I have is whether it is necessary to drop down a gear or two and get the revs up past 2500 to keep the DPF clean. Unfortunately the sales literature gives no indication on how the car needs to be driven to avoid DPF problems.

The car has just had its first service and needs to be booked in for at least two weeks to have the balance shaft replaced. Is the balance shaft lubricated with engine oil and could fuel contamination in the engine oil cause it to fail

Just checked the Jaguar app and found that probably 40% of my journeys are less than 20 minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Oil dilution will no doubt shorten the engines life. Should the oil change interval be reduced to 6 monthly. If I bought one of these used with over 50k on the clock I would use a cheap oil and change it every 3000 miles.
 

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And a cheap oil would likely be higher SAPS, lower grade base oil and additive pack, in turn increasing fuel consumption and requiring DPF regeneration more often, thus dumping more fuel into the sump making the oil thinning worse, causing problems elsewhere and being a false economy. Castrol and Jag reformulated the EDGE PROFESSIONAL E 0W-30 around 12 months ago to combat the oil dilution issue and you should check that is what they use at oil change.
I have the JLR bulletin somewhere and will post in the next couple of days once I find it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
A better solution would be for the dealer to carry out a 6 monthly check on the sump oil and carry out an oil change at their cost at least during the warranty period if the amount of dilution exceeds acceptable limits. They should also write to all owners making them aware of the issue and offering some guidance on how to mitigate the effects of what is a major design fault. For example would taking the car on the motorway or fast road once a week and driving for 20 minutes at over 2000 revs keep the dpf clean and prevent very costly repair bills. Thank you for responding, I look forward to reading the bulletin.
 

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My D240 has only done 4.9K miles. I've just had the service required notification. Scheduled service is due May 2021 so I suspect I have this issue too. Thing is I rarely use my car for short journeys and has mainly been used on motorways/a-roads. After reading this I'm starting to get concerned now. My car is booked in Wed 25 Aug, so I'll update what the dealer says later.
 

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Traore said:
Oil dilution will no doubt shorten the engines life. Should the oil change interval be reduced to 6 monthly. If I bought one of these used with over 50k on the clock I would use a cheap oil and change it every 3000 miles.
Traore said:
A better solution would be for the dealer to carry out a 6 monthly check on the sump oil and carry out an oil change at their cost at least during the warranty period if the amount of dilution exceeds acceptable limits. They should also write to all owners making them aware of the issue and offering some guidance on how to mitigate the effects of what is a major design fault. For example would taking the car on the motorway or fast road once a week and driving for 20 minutes at over 2000 revs keep the dpf clean and prevent very costly repair bills. Thank you for responding, I look forward to reading the bulletin.
I was sorry to read that you have become the latest victim of JLR's faulty DPF scam which the company conceived to hide a major design fault on D8 chassis SUVs (Discovery Sport, Evoque and E-Pace) manufactured since 2015 with the 2.0 litre Ingenium diesel engine. The issue is well understood, both technically and morphologically, and your account of the lies told to you at the JLR dealership makes yours somewhat of a textbook case.

The statement that the early service was due to "a computer or sensor problem" was a lie and the person uttering those words knew as much. Then you were told that "the problem was due to [your] driving style, doing too many short journeys at low speeds". This, too, was a straightforward attempt at deception, designed to deflect your attention away from the truth. Then they said that regular oil changes "should cure the problem" which is ridiculous given that nothing short of a complete redesign of the exhaust architecture will resolve this expensive mistake.

The following facts can be proven:

1) There is no passive regeneration during normal driving.
2) Active regenerations are required more frequently.
3) An active regeneration takes longer to complete.
4) Diesel dilution rises faster, in step with post-injection due to 2) and 3).
5) Interruption of an active regeneration is more likely due to 2) and 3).
6) There is more likelihood of a clogged DPF due to 5)

See "D8 Dilution Explained" for an in-depth description of the causes and consequences of this fault.

Regarding the balance shaft issue, this may be partially due to impaired lubricant viscosity but it is unlikely that marginal dilution of the 0W30 engine oil is the sole cause. It is possible that at critical periods the needle roller bearings on both shafts do not receive sufficient oil mist from four spray nozzles situated in the crank case. There is a good analysis of this issue on the DS forum .

Modified balance shafts received additional hardening but dealers are instructed to use these as replacements only at the second replacement, The original part number LR074075 is used for the first repair, but the one that stands a better chance of fixing the problem is LR123806. See LTB01263 or LTB01263NAS1

Regarding the potential for long-term damage and shortening of engine life, having watched this issue closely now for getting on for four years I would say that the biggest risk relates to stretching or catastrophic failure of the timing chain, something which has been regularly reported across all units using the Ingenium diesel, though not, it has to be said, in great numbers.

Jaguar Land Rover denies that there is any systematic fault, therefore it will never issue recalls relating to the DPF design flaw. Different driving styles DO have an impact on the performance of the D8 diesels but to nothing like the extent that JLR would have you believe. Normal driving can never invoke passive regeneration due to the system design so the average mileage between services (dilution trigger set to 6%) was originally in the range of 8,000 to 8,500 miles (evidentially the range was from 3,500 to 14,000 miles). Then JLR upped the diesel dilution to 10% (see N289 ) which increased the average service interval to 13,800 miles absent any other technical intervention. This is considered by many automotive engineers to be excessive, for example JLR itself said in JLRP00100 that more than 6% diesel dilution risked catastrophic engine failure. Nevertheless, this is currently how JLR is nursing hundreds of thousands of faulty diesels to create the appearance of reasonable, vehicle-initiated, service intervals, having in 2018 withdrawn the misleading claims of 21,000 miles and/or 2 years.

For the moment the UK market seems to have been pacified by JLR's crafty sleights of hand but class actions have begun in other English-speaking nations, notably America and Australia. In the UK, if you are one of those worst affected owners, the choices are stark. You either accept the vehicle's limitations, swallowing the cost and inconvenience of additional servicing while exposing yourself to the risk of other, related, failures - or you reject the vehicle with legal assistance knowing that you will eventually win (the case against JLR is almost impossible to defend), but that it will take up to a year to overcome JLR's delaying tactics.

The UK lawyer of choice for most people is Phil Harmer at Stormcatcher and if you decide that your current situation is untenable this is definitely the person to call.
 

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Links to the DPF class action filed against JLR NA in New Jersey. The claim alleges that JLR must have known in advance about the DPF system's limitations and that therefore the company engaged in deliberate deception. This implies that the deception was systemic, having been sanctioned at executive level. The document fragment attached above (23rd 8.37am) was a late attempt by JLR to hide its tracks and push responsibility onto its dealers for misselling vehicles that it knew were faulty.

According to the complaint, Jaguar Land Rover North America knew at the time of sale or lease that the vehicles were defective and not fit for their intended use of providing safe and reliable transportation. The automaker nonetheless actively concealed from drivers the true nature and extent of the diesel particulate filter issue, the suit claims. Had the plaintiff and similarly situated owners and lessees known of the problem, they would not have bought or leased their vehicles, or would have paid less than the sticker price, the lawsuit asserts.
https://www.classaction.org/news/class-action-claims-diesel-filter-defect-in-jaguar-land-rover-range-rover-vehicles-poses-an-unreasonable-safety-hazard

https://www.classaction.org/media/shaaya-v-jaguar-land-rover-north-america-llc.pdf
 

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Not long back from the dealers. I was all ready for a battle, but the service reminder had been incorrectly set for some weird reason. They did check the oil dilution ratio and it was 2%, so no issues yet hopefully. I'm not surprised as I don't do any short journeys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thank you revoke for your very enlightening posts. Do you know whether there is a time/mileage limit for making a claim against JLR in the event of being subjected to an expensive repair bill.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
When my oil service light illuminated prematurely the dealer said that it was probably due to the level of oil dilution. This would infer that there is a sensor in the engine monitoring oil dilution levels, Is this the case. If not, what actually triggers Illumination of the warning light.

One article that I read stated that one of causes of oil dilution is due to interruption of the dpf regeneration cycle. How do you know that regeneration is in progress. If it was clear I would make sure not to interrupt it.
 

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You will hear the engine cooling fan running if it is mid cycle, engine idle is also slightly higher.

Revoke, I'd be interested to see your evidence of "Normal driving can never invoke passive regeneration" as mine does and I'm sure a substantial number do?

I am not affiliated with Jaguar in any way and am not defending them, I have my own issues with the car and JLR's blanket policy of denying issues and refusing to answer simple questions along with the conflicting information given by their own customer service centre staff, just curious.
 

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NeBC said:
You will hear the engine cooling fan running if it is mid cycle, engine idle is also slightly higher.

Revoke, I'd be interested to see your evidence of "Normal driving can never invoke passive regeneration" as mine does and I'm sure a substantial number do?

I am not affiliated with Jaguar in any way and am not defending them, I have my own issues with the car and JLR's blanket policy of denying issues and refusing to answer simple questions along with the conflicting information given by their own customer service centre staff, just curious.
This is my understanding of the technical challenges that JLR faced in 2014-2015 after its engineers found that they couldn't fit a close-coupled DOC-DPF (as installed in the 163HP Jaguar XE Ingenium) to D8 chassis diesel SUVs.

The phrase "passive regeneration" describes two chemical reactions that are supposed to occur under different conditions in the diesel particulate filter (DPF).

Passive regeneration by nitrogen dioxide
An important function of the diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) is to oxidise nitric oxide (NO) to nitrogen dioxide (NO2) (source: dieselnet). In the downstream DPF, at temperatures above 250° C, the nitrogen dioxide reacts with hydrocarbon deposits (soot) to produce carbon dioxide and water (source: JLR). On the affected engines using the Johnson Matthey SCRF system, this passive regeneration process is effectively inhibited due to intense competition for the available NO2. The competing chemical reaction is selective catalytic reduction (SCR) which also takes place in the DPF canister. See the paper from Johnson Matthey for more details.

Passive regeneration by free oxygen
If the particulate filter is situated close enough to the engine turbo outlet it is possible under medium-heavy engine loads to generate DPF temperatures above 580° C. This is the minimum temperature required to oxidise carbon directly into carbon dioxide (it's the same reaction that occurs in active regeneration). The problem with the elongated exhaust architecture is that these temperatures are elusive, practically impossible to achieve during normal driving.

That's the technical background to the passive regeneration problem and fleshes out what JLR meant by "architecture and hardware" differences between model lines" and "engineering challenges". It boils down to the fact that 1) passive regeneration by NO2 is prevented whilst the SCR dosing is active (that's pretty much 100% of the time under EU6) and 2) passive regeneration by oxygen is inhibited due to insufficient heat.

So much for the theory. The proof is contained in a letter signed by JLR's Executive Office. "

Rectangle Font Eyelash Screenshot Slope


References:
Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (dieselnet)
Johnson Matthey CSF vs SCRF
DPF Operation - JLR
 

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I've worked in the automotive industry for 15 years, not affiliated with any manufacturer and have have seen this issue consistently since 2007. Back then, particularly in Peugeot's and more often Police cars of that manufacturer, why that should be I can't say. What I can't get my head around is if normal driving will never invoke passive regeneration, why isn't every single diesel version of the E-Pace affected? Some must be "invoking passive regeneration" unless it's being suggested that my driving style, and many others, is not normal?
I am field based and travel 100 to 300 miles a day normally so perhaps that is the case in my circumstance.
What I'd like to see is number of diesel E-Pace sold versus number affected by clogged DPF due to failure of passive regeneration activation.
 

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NeBC said:
I've worked in the automotive industry for 15 years, not affiliated with any manufacturer and have have seen this issue consistently since 2007. Back then, particularly in Peugeot's and more often Police cars of that manufacturer, why that should be I can't say. What I can't get my head around is if normal driving will never invoke passive regeneration, why isn't every single diesel version of the E-Pace affected? Some must be "invoking passive regeneration" unless it's being suggested that my driving style, and many others, is not normal?
I am field based and travel 100 to 300 miles a day normally so perhaps that is the case in my circumstance.
What I'd like to see is number of diesel E-Pace sold versus number affected by clogged DPF due to failure of passive regeneration activation.
I had always linked the terms "typical" and "normal" in the letter, assuming that they were synonyms. From this, I envisage three types of driving styles.

1. Driving regularly in excess of 62 mph for more than 30 minutes puts a car in the clear, regardless of whether or not it is exposed to the occasional drive of "over an hour". For such a car the extended drive would be superfluous. I think of this car, not as normal, but "Normal Plus". This car will have relatively low oil dilution and a healthy DPF.

2. A car that's driven exclusively at only 30 to 50 mph for 15 to 30 minutes each time is being subjected to "normal" driving within the definition, so it doesn't passively regenerate. Therefore it needs the occasional drive of "over an hour" to create sufficient time for the inevitable active regeneration to complete. Provided the 60 minute-plus drive is performed regularly, this car is "Normal" according to JLR. It will have high oil dilution but the DPF should not clog.

3. Thus just leaves "Normal Minus", a car that's driven at, say, 35 to 40 mph for 15 to 20 minutes each time but which never gets the extended drive of more than 60 minutes. This is the one that's guaranteed to suffer from a clogged DPF and, naturally, it will have extremely high oil dilution.

The phrase "over an hour" is important due to the exhaust architecture. Assume that a "Normal minus" car (actually this could be any car) started to actively regenerate and was immediately turned off by the owner. The car cools overnight. An engineer told me that it takes 10 minutes to get the system up to temperature, during which time soot is being produced with no passive or active regeneration possible. Active regeneration starts once the engine is hot but there is a further 5 minute delay getting the DPF up to temperature using retarded ignition. Then it takes "20 to 30" minutes driving above 40 mph to complete the soot burn. Total elapsed time can be 45 minutes to ensure a second interruption doesn't occur. To my mind this was why JLR included the phrase "some drives of over an hour" within its definition of normal or typical driving.
 

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But where are your figures of vehicles affected? I've read all these things before. I've also read Vauxhalls handbook stating DPF equipped vehicles should not be parked in long grass due to the risk of fire during and shortly after a regeneration cycle. How many actually caught fire? The same Vauxhall handbook was updated for a fleet of over 500 Astra J's to advise drivers to leave the vehicle in gear when parked on a hill after 3 of the fleet rolled away, one causing injury and writing the car off. An independent garage inspection determined the automatic parking brake was applied whilst the brakes were hot, as they cooled contraction occurred and was enough to allow the car to move whilst unattended. I am also aware of it happening to a Tesco home shopping Sprinter van local to me and know the driver well. No recall from Mercedes or Vauxhall on these issues. Are or were they more widespread or is it actually a fairly small percentage affected, again this could be construed as "driving style"?
To quote documents, letters and recalls without hard facts and figures to back up the argument against their content doesn't convince me a large percentage of cars are affected. I sympathise with those who are having issues and would expect JLR to replace or repair their cars but this should be done on an individual basis, a class action, in my opinion, just makes money for the lawyers involved.
 

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We have e pace 2.0 180 hp. We have 25 000 km. No problem with DPF, average day distance 40 km. Sometimes it is 10 sometimes 100.
Are there any technicals differences between 150 km and 180 km?
I read that DPF problems are mostly in 150 km.
 

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What percentage of vehicles suffering with the same problem justifies a class action? I don't know, though I suspect that it only takes a tiny fraction of the vehicles sold. If people had experienced this problem and the manufacturer's response had been, "yes, we're sorry that are experiencing this issue, we shouldn't have sold this vehicle to you without a thorough investigation into how you planned to use it", then there would be little to complain about. But for a number of owners, this is effectively what they hear, "Our vehicles are performing normally. Your driving style is wrong. You can have this one on us, then you're on your own, sucker".
Hundreds of owners have heard that identical speech; I was one of them. But I found out that if you are prepared to push back, to tell them what's really wrong with their cars, to show them the evidence, to produce the expert witness who would deliver it and make it stand up in court, then they will back down. Every time! On every occasion that people have demonstrated the resolve to take JLR or Black Horse et al over their own hurdles, at some point they will concede that, yes, there is a fault and they will then, reluctantly, stoop to pick up the tab. It has taken from 4 days (an E-Pace reported on this forum) to a year (this was the latest DS, owned by "redali") but this is always the outcome. Unless someond knows better...
What JLR, its dealers and the finance sharks rely on is fear. They prey on the weak and ignorant. Ordinary people are reluctant to take legal action because they fear the financial consequences of losing. This is where the group legal action process delivers results because it doesn't merely reduce the risk, it eliminates it and passes it onto the lawyers. And for that they get handsomely paid. But at least the owners get something, rather than nothing, and it gives a court the opportunity to award punitive damages to act as a deterrent against future abuses of public trust.
The accounts on here represent the tip of the iceberg, just in the UK.
https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/forums/topic/miss-sold-diesel-with-dpf-problems/

The lawyers behind the current class actions think they can prove a systemic fault, otherwise why would they be wasting their time and energy with this?

Australian class action - http://bannisterlaw.com.au/jlrdpfclassaction/

USA class action - https://www.classaction.org/news/class-action-claims-diesel-filter-defect-in-jaguar-land-rover-range-rover-vehicles-poses-an-unreasonable-safety-hazard
 

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I'm sorry, I still see no actual evidence only reports of individual circumstances skewed by those who complain on forums and those who have no issues and don't post about it. Every manufacturer has issues with their DPF system. The customer service response in how it's dealt with is the difference and this is where JLR fails.
 

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NeBC said:
I'm sorry, I still see no actual evidence only reports of individual circumstances skewed by those who complain on forums and those who have no issues and don't post about it. Every manufacturer has issues with their DPF system. The customer service response in how it's dealt with is the difference and this is where JLR fails.
This document reproduces 12 statements that originated from genuine JLR sources. For each one I've got the original document and I would be extremely keen to introduce them in court if required. Just send me a PM once you know the hearing date. I'll attend free of charge.

Yes, of course DPF problems can occur on any vehicle if people prevent the active regeneration process from completing. But no other manufacturer has ever been so stupid as to deploy a selective catalytic reduction on filter device (SCRF) that wasn't close-coupled. I'm always willing to see new evidence, though.

The following narrative consists entirely of JLR statements.
Font Paper Screenshot Paper product Parallel

Compare statements b) and i) - the system was designed to include passive regeneration during normal driving, and presumably this operation manual was written after it had been exposed to 2 million miles of real driving and 72,000 hours of dyno-testing. Yet by October 2017, passive regeneration was no longer associated with normal driving. We must draw our own conclusions. View attachment 959
 

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Traore said:
Do you know whether there is a time/mileage limit for making a claim against JLR in the event of being subjected to an expensive repair bill.

When my oil service light illuminated prematurely the dealer said that it was probably due to the level of oil dilution. This would infer that there is a sensor in the engine monitoring oil dilution levels, Is this the case. If not, what actually triggers Illumination of the warning light.

One article that I read stated that one of causes of oil dilution is due to interruption of the dpf regeneration cycle. How do you know that regeneration is in progress. If it was clear I would make sure not to interrupt it.
Traore, sorry I missed these questions.

1. The right to reject goods which are not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described comes from the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The time limit to exercise your rights under this Act is 6 years. There's no time limit for rescission of the contract, following a ruling that comes from Salt vs Stratstone. In this case the County Court awarded damages in lieu of rescission on the basis that the parties couldn't be put back into their original position because the car in question had been registered and too much time had elapsed since the sale. The County Court awarded £3,250 in damages under s2(2) of the Misrepresentation Act 1967 as an alternative remedy to rescission. The High Court overturned this decision and this was upheld on appeal. The County Court had been wrong to refuse rescission and Stratstone was ordered to reimburse Mr Salt for the full price of the car. So this is a good ruling to remember if a dealer starts down the same track as Stratstone and says, for example, "we can't take the car back now because it's more than 3 years old". They can and they can be made to.

2. There's no sensor to detect the amount of oil dilution. The Bosch fuel management system on the EDC17 chip knows precisely how much diesel has been "post injected" into the cylinders during active regeneration events and a software algorithm calculates how much of this is likely to have been scraped into the oil sump. When the calculated amount of diesel added to the oil reaches 625 ml (about 1.1 pints) the car requests an oil change by presenting the Service Required message, or lighting up the warning light, depending on the year and model.

3. Preventing an interruption to an active regeneration event won't prevent oil dilution because the dilution accumulates continuously while active regeneration is running. However, if the active regeneration is allowed to complete, this will reduce the overall quantity of diesel that reaches the sump compared to restarting and completing the active regeneration after the engine has cooled. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to detect an active regeneration in progress, unless you are prepared to invest money and time setting up an OBD monitor. There has been some progress on this on the DS Forum but I haven't kept up to date with how far they got.

Hope that helps.
RV
 
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